Curse

draugr · Jan 15, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

This is my suggestion: every class should have condition and hex management of some sort available. As a result, playing certain prof/secondary bases leaves you with no way, or very gimpy ways, to build to manage hexes and conditions. E/W, W/E have no hex and very gimpy condition management (I will survive) available. E/R, R/E have no hex and very limited condition management (antidote sig). E/N, W/N, N/E, and N/W have limited condition management through N elites and one touch range ability and no hex management. The Me base has excellent hex management and no condition management, so Me/E and Me/W are very vulnerable to conditions.

With so many spammable hexes and conditions out there, and with the difficulty of hex and condition management even for the Mo base, ALL combos should have counters available IF THEY CHOOSE TO USE one of the eight precious skill slots on it.

People will respond, "but then builds will be overpowered v other builds who use cond/hex as damage." My reply would be that degen/hex builds are currently overpowered v many other single toon builds and that if you are using slots for cond/hex management, you are sacrificing offensive abilities.

Weezer_Blue · Jan 15, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Degen builds are certainly not overpowered. This game is not designed for self sufficient characters.

Sol_Vie · Jan 15, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Except for wars and elementalist, they all do. Monks have removal and healing breeze, rangers have TU and Antidote sig (for condition DoT), mesmers have removal, necros have removal and things like life siphon/transfer. Chances are you'll have at least one of those classes as either your primary or secondary.

Rangers (antidote sig), monks (I can't list em all), and necros (Plague touch is brutal on trappers) all have condition management. I'm not sure on mesmers though. Those three are pretty popular secondary professions. Besides, as Weezer said, this game is not built to have self sufficient characters.

Sagius Truthbarron · Jan 15, 2006, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Its called 'use your subclass'.

Robster Lobster · Jan 15, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I kind of agree with this, as an E/N there is no way (I don't think) of me being able to remove any hexes from myself or an ally. Hex management is already stupidly hard for monks, so something like this could be quite nice. And it's not as if everyone would use it if they already had good hex management with the monks.

Sagius Truthbarron · Jan 15, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Hex management isn't hard for monks. You can either heal trough them or remove them. You can't just remove every hex you see, though. You might want to try calling your hex if you get something like Backfire or Spiteful Spirit on yourself.

Its already bad enough that now most mesmer secondairy players take Inspired Hex. Giving W/Rs and R/Ws would seriously out balance using hexes, in my opinion.

I mean, 8 people with an 7-12 second recharge hex remover? That would make any hex build other than Hex Overloads useless.

Banebow · Jan 15, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

"overpowered versus single toon builds"

Last I checked, this was a team game. Looks like you'll have to just accept that mesmer and ask him to bring hex removal.

draugr · Jan 15, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

My point was that despite the dozens of ways to reduce or alleviate physical damage, there are relatively few ways to manage hexes and conditions. This is imbalanced for team play IMO. BTW my favorite pvp builds are almost all based on hexes and degen.

Robster Lobster · Jan 15, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

Hex management isn't hard for monks. You can either heal trough them or remove them. You can't just remove every hex you see, though. You might want to try calling your hex if you get something like Backfire or Spiteful Spirit on yourself.

Its already bad enough that now most mesmer secondairy players take Inspired Hex. Giving W/Rs and R/Ws would seriously out balance using hexes, in my opinion.

I mean, 8 people with an 7-12 second recharge hex remover? That would make any hex build other than Hex Overloads useless.

But alot of people won't stick backfire or spiteful spirit on and leave it at that, you're going to get covered, which means if someone is not carrying convert hexes or that other one (removes all conditions and hexes, -10 energy for each removed) then you're going to need at least 2 hex removals on you, with either a 2 second cast time (strong chance of something like this getting interrupted) or a 10-20 second downtime while the rest of your team suffers for it. Alot of the time I'm forced to sit around doing nothing to very little waiting for my hexes to disappear. And I'm sure if there was something in the two lines I could make room to bring it, surely the disadvantage of that would make my slightly better hex removal fair?

I was thinking, I'm sure there would be ways to slot these in.

Suffering to the Dead
Necromancer (death magic)
Cast 2s, Recharge 10s, Energy 10

Teleport to nearest corpse and they absorb (1..2) hexes from you. The target body does not suffer any penalty from 'absorbing' these hexes.

Basically the hex is removed, but as it's the Necro line I thought something involving dead enemies would be good.

Shield of Water/Air/Earth/Fire
Elementalist (depends on spell for attribute)
Cast 3s, Recharge 15s, Energy 15

Stance(?- I think an Ele stance could be cool, if not then an enchantment would be fine)- For (8...21)s you have a 50% chance to 'block' all hex spells cast on you. For every hex blocked in this way you lose (3...10) energy or Shield of Water/Air/Earth/Fire ends. 50% chance of failure at Energy Storage 5 or less. The cast hex is recharged instantly for targetting foe.

The interesting thing about this one would be that at 0 energy storage you lose 3 energy when you negate a hex, but at higher levels of energy storage you lose more energy.

Just some suggestions, I haven't made up any skills before really, so they'd probably need balanced.

The Acolyte · Jan 15, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

agree with most of what I'm reading above. This is a slippery slope request...the end product might as well be GW without classes, and just make all skills available to everyone.

/unsigned

I like the fact that it takes more than two classes (for the most part) to be succesful. In fact, I would prefer Anet balance this more to promote MORE team playing by increasing the solitary value of each of the classes a little more.

The Acolyte

draugr · Jan 16, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

agree with most of what I'm reading above. This is a slippery slope request...the end product might as well be GW without classes, and just make all skills available to everyone.

Yes, that's what my suggestion was in reality, not "balance the few methods of condition and hex management against the myriad ways of physical damage management," but "make all classes the same." Or rather, that's what you would like it to be, so you pretend that it is. In addition to the logic term "slippery slope," which you misuse to the point of hyperbole, perhaps you should learn another, "straw man."

fiery · Jan 16, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

This is my suggestion: every class should have condition and hex management of some sort available. As a result, playing certain prof/secondary bases leaves you with no way, or very gimpy ways, to build to manage hexes and conditions. E/W, W/E have no hex and very gimpy condition management (I will survive) available. E/R, R/E have no hex and very limited condition management (antidote sig). E/N, W/N, N/E, and N/W have limited condition management through N elites and one touch range ability and no hex management. The Me base has excellent hex management and no condition management, so Me/E and Me/W are very vulnerable to conditions.

With so many spammable hexes and conditions out there, and with the difficulty of hex and condition management even for the Mo base, ALL combos should have counters available IF THEY CHOOSE TO USE one of the eight precious skill slots on it.

People will respond, "but then builds will be overpowered v other builds who use cond/hex as damage." My reply would be that degen/hex builds are currently overpowered v many other single toon builds and that if you are using slots for cond/hex management, you are sacrificing offensive abilities.

gahh... dont wanna be a downer... but this post is just like that post saying EVERYONE profession should have a unlimited res or something... like said its not a self self sufficent having to take away every hex and condition you have.. you can always go monk/x or x/monk or necro/x necro/x or mes/x x/mes or if want both go monk/mes mes/monk

builds be overpowered? or professions will be obsolete? depend on your groups..if not travel with a guild group.. like in Tombs you running a balance group.. almost every profession has a hex removal....team work is the key.

Maiyn · Jan 16, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

I sort of think we need better hex removal, but I think conditions are well covered for. It is sort of the prot monks role to remove conditions, so perhaps you just need a better prot monk.

Many people run Mo/X or X/Mo Martyr builds, which is really quite useful for conditions.

With holy veil and remove hex, smite hex. I dunno.. I think it's covered. I don't think hexes are very fun, but the reason most characters can't do anything about hexes is because it is the monks job. ^_^

Valdaran Longfoot · Jan 17, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

I like the current hex/condtion removal.

Having some hexes get past removal is part of the game, and any more hex removal might make other builds very pointless and weak.

This game isnt about how well you as a character do. With the exception of the Doppleganger, its all based on how well your team is. If your monk can't deal with hexes, then thats his fault.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jan 17, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol_Vie

Except for wars and elementalist, they all do. Monks have removal and healing breeze, rangers have TU and Antidote sig (for condition DoT), mesmers have removal, necros have removal and things like life siphon/transfer. Chances are you'll have at least one of those classes as either your primary or secondary.

Rangers (antidote sig), monks (I can't list em all), and necros (Plague touch is brutal on trappers) all have condition management. I'm not sure on mesmers though. Those three are pretty popular secondary professions. Besides, as Weezer said, this game is not built to have self sufficient characters.

I WILL SURVIVE DAMNIT!

The Acolyte · Jan 17, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Yes, that's what my suggestion was in reality, not "balance the few methods of condition and hex management against the myriad ways of physical damage management," but "make all classes the same." Or rather, that's what you would like it to be, so you pretend that it is. In addition to the logic term "slippery slope," which you misuse to the point of hyperbole, perhaps you should learn another, "straw man."

Take a critical thinking 101 course you fool.

Strawman = An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.

Slippery Slope = A tricky precarious situation, especially one that leads gradually but inexorably to disaster

Hence, by making this ONE exception, if we continue down this path of logic we eventually land at "all classes are the same." Therefore, slippery slope would be the best use of terminology to refute your request.

Instead of trying to correct me and making yourself sound like a moron, why don't you keep the discussion focused on selling me and others why this is such a great idea.

I don't like your idea in it's current form, and many others agree with my position; get over it.

The Acolyte

PS - Also, a better example of a hyperbole would be the comment:

"Its called 'use your subclass'." quoated in this very thread by Sagius Truthbarron

Raxxman · Jan 17, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Necro, plague touch, plague sending or plague signet

Oh I'm blind crippled and bleeding, now you're blind crippled and bleeding...

Necros have awsome condition removal, cause you give it to your opponent, need to get rid of that warrior who just hamstrung you? oh now he's hamstrung and you're away.

Now for dealing with mesmers? Eh at best I think something like a max armour version of the Lt. Helm, you'd loose +1 to your weapon/focus ect but you'd half the duration of hexes. But you could always make sure one of your team has yah back?